I'm also in favour of using biscuits simply for alignment, but I've found then even when I don't glue them in place (or, I used very little glue), I end up with a noticable lump on either side where the biscuit has swollen up. They generally swell up by 1mm, I think.

I haven't noticed the same problem with a loose tongue however. The problem there can be running a full-length groove when the end-grain is going to be exposed on-show. 

Olly,

the tongue showing is no problem if you make it out of the same material, surely.

derek. 

I,ve tried and use both methods, the one thing in favour of biscuits is alignment and it is easier, in my opinion, to stop curl with a biscuit joint, but before I bought one I always rubbed a joint, ( these days I think they roll them).

derek. 

I should say that I have  C.M.T. finger jointer that I use for standard 20/22 mm. thick panelling material, which gets rid of all of the problems in one, I don't use it a lot for other thickness material as it is a devil to set up, unless I have a lot of repetition work, then it's worth all the hassle of test pieces and setting up.

Derek. 

Ben wrote :-

"There's always a good deal of hand planing afterwards to get rid of any machine / planer marks on the finished panel."

Why? In previous threads as well, folks have said about planer marks & the need for planning, scraping or belt sanding them out. Once i`ve put a piece of timber through the planer all it ever needs is a light sanding.

Even if i get tear out i turn the timber round set the planer to its finest cut & through it goes again untill i get the required finish.

My planer gives just as good a finish as my hand planes & never leaves marks.

Can anyone explain???

Baz

Baz,

surely any well set-up planer will not leave marks, or if it does they are ifinitessimal, I don't think I hand plane my boards after joining, unless I've made a bad jopb of alignment. I probably will put the belt sander followed by the orbital over, but then i do that to all pieces of timber regardless, before finishing.

derek. 

Afternoon Guys

I didn't think this thread was still going. I mainly use my belt sander after the clamp come off because i'm a power tool freak!!

A message to Big all a Dutch man is just a serface patch, Derek described in one of the early answers.

An up date on the panels all routing and patching and gluing is done tomorrow I go belt sanding crazy.

Dusty P J

Planer marks are a problem if the rpm of the cutter block is slow compared to the feed rate. Surface plane a piece of wood very quickly for half its length then slowly for the rest and you will see what the difference is.

Because the mechanical planer cuts in a rotary manner it takes scoops out of the wood, the closer each scoop is to the previous one the "flatter" the board is. A hand plane cuts by shearing the wood fibres in a linear plane(direction) . The comparative results of a carefully planed example of machined and hand prepared timber would probably only show up under microscopic scrutiny.

Rubbed glue joints have been around for...well almost as there has been glue.. Some time ago I was involved in restoring a listed manor house in which the wall panelling had to be replaced. The panels were in frames, the lower one up to dado height, the upper finishing at the cornice moulding, the overall height of the wood panels was 15 feet. The panels themselves were flat and 9mm thick, no room for biscuits, a pva rubbed joint (with the assistance of masking tape as a clamping device) overcome the problem. Interestingly the original panels were planed only on one side with the edges relieved on the sawn side to fit them into the frameworks groove.

Thank Rob

I find running wide boards through my plainer a bit scary. Perhaps i am just going too quick,my usual problem. I looked at your gallery your are the raised panel expert it's to late now but do you do the end grain first then the edges or another way? 

Start end grain then rotate panel anti-clockwise, this reduces any breakout.( for spindle work, if using a router on top of work move router in clockwise direction)

The other thing I do is pre-plan the biscuit locations on a project so they will not pop up to say hello when cutting or moulding, it takes practice but is worthwhile (especially on polished oak stair strings) That mistake cost a lot of extra work and ££££'s went bye -bye!

Yes pre-plane as i said before just call me a novice! I didn't know exactle how wide or how tall the panel had to be the i lost where the biscuits were. Never mind i'm glad it's only a hobby! PS the arches were interesting to do.

Thanks for the advice P J

Using the slower feed rate setting, and not looking to remove too much at each pass,  my thicknesser (£80 from eBay) leaves a finish you don't have to do anything with at all.....

.....this with an old machine with only 2 blades.  I'm surprised to hear that some of these expensive modern machines aren't achieving this.

Boards going through the thicknesser are all the same thickness, and so a floating (loose) tongue guarantees that all the faces come flush (unless the boards are twisted or curved). If they are twisted, or you have fed through the router table poorly, there will be some joins that require attention.....and this is when I reach for the beltsander, and Ben reaches for the plane.

If the end grain is going to show, I simply stop the groove short at both ends so that it looks like a butt joint.

Another technique I often use is to have chamfered edges at the board joins, as on the seat of the settle in my gallery. This removes the need for any sanding at all. 

Simple thing you'd think, gluing two boards together edge to edge.......yet here we have uncovered half a dozen different approaches to it! 

Mike 

PS......just for my education......

You planers, when selecting the board positions.....do you try and arrange boards so that the grain is all running in the same direction, to allow for your planing-up afterwards? 

When lining up boards for any panel, unless I'm using quarter-sawn timber, I look for "smiles and frowns" (as my tutor puts it...) in the end-grain of each board. I don't usually give too much thought towards which direction the grain is running in, although I guess I look for what I think looks nice - usually meaning it also alternates with each board.

Going back to the finish from a planer and thicknesser, when I did my carpentry & joinery course, we were working under the assumption that this is about as good as finish as you're going to need. A little sanding would be required after to clean off any glue, pencil marks and any bumps.

Since returning to college, I've been taught how these "invisible" ripples left by any planing machine can show up as dark shadows in almost any finish. We get marked down for leaving them in - even when I can't see them, my tutor spots them from a mile off! Sanding alone is no longer good enough for me. I have to start with a scraper and hand plane every time now.

I guess that's the difference between joinery and fine cabinet making!

It's noticable in the door frames we have at college, which were put in less than three-years ago. Even though they're plastered in grey paint, when the light catches them, you can clearly see marks left by the planer. 

.......you sand off pencil marks??

I use a rubber! 

PJ .. pre- planning will become second nature, the challenge for me is to produce a product that is to the requirements of the client(or myself) without losing either time or money.

Mike ... when sorting the timber one looks at the grain pattern ( flames go up) but when planing check the "lay" of the grain/figure so that the planer is not cutting against the "lay"(or against the direction of the visible grain). This causes tear out ,though with some timbers it is unfortunately unavoidable.( unless planed by hand, with sharp irons)